Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

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erictharg
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm

Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by erictharg »

Thought it best to start a new topic here as my comments about the 4AGE being my next engine raised quite a bit of feedback! It is about 18" tall from crank centre to top of the cam covers / cambelt wheels but that's no much more than the A series to the top of the filler cap. I've accepted I'm going to have a small bonnet swelling whatever I go with (except the Ford crossflow), but the Toyota engine is the smallest and has lots of potential. I plan to graft it onto a Mazda MX5 box as they're plentiful, cheap and have half decent ratios plus a nice shift. I'll need an overdrive 5th as I plan to stick with the Midget rear end for now, and its 3.9 diff (and I'm getting over 6500 rpm on long straights with that set up and 121hp - so with 160hp I'll need another gear!). You can get Type 9 bellhousings to suit the 4AGE, but Type 9's are getting rarer and by the time you've got decent ratios and an alloy casing they add up to over £1000. I'll run carbs (twin DCOES) and I'm guessing I'll have to run a crank trigger and programmable ignition. Aiming to start with stock short block and head, pair of 270 - 280 deg cams (Piper or CAT) and with the carbs that should net me 150 - 160hp. However my pal Q (of Q Prep here in Oundle) has a stack of goodies he's acquired over the years for the 4Age so spec may flex! He was going to build a 200hp + version to put into his Starlet but accepts it's never likely to happen. Meanwhile I have perfect home for the engine...
I'm hoping the A Series will see me through this season, as I amass the bits for the conversion. To stay competitive with Adam Wilkinson (lower drag car, more power, better driver!) and Ken Culverwell's new Mazda based Eleven (160hp but undeclared weight) I need to do something different.
erictharg
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by erictharg »

Sorry - make that 16" tall, and about 18" long. And 270lbs in weight means not much penalty there either.
Mknight702
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by Mknight702 »

I know where there is a 6 speed RX8 box going spare. (and engine in bits together with the rest of the car!)
Mknight702
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by Mknight702 »

What about going for a Specialist Components billet aluminium 7 port head plus fuel injection. That way you get to keep the A series and gearbox, although you could still go 5 speed.
erictharg
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by erictharg »

Acquired an 1.8S MX5 gearbox and propshaft that happened to be advertised on E Bay locally at a sensible price. £50 for the box and £30 for the prop. Cheap enough for messing around with. The ratios on the 6 speed MX5 box are excellent for racing. The middle four gears are just about perfect race ratios (2.22, 1.64, 1.26 and 1.00). Plus you've got the true first gear at 3.76 to make driving around in the paddock easy on the clutch, and a 0.84 sixth gear just in case you run out of revs on those really long straights. The 4 AGE's 8000 rpm capability will allow c. 132mph in 4th before you need to change up though. The MX5 also comes with a neat hydraulic clutch release vs the Type 9's cable set up. First impressions on size are that it is long. The lever may be too far back and need a simple second remote set up to put it where it needs to be.
Mounting hole pattern features two bolt / dowel holes on the same horizontal diameter as the input shaft (on a 160mm radius), so picking up on those for an adaptor plate should be a good easy start.
Q Nicholls is still gathering together all of the 4AGE bits he has so hope to collect them from him in the next few weeks. Then I can serious about checking what might need to be altered to let the whole set up fit.

Worth noting that Peter May have a neat solution to the replacement clutch cover dilemma on a balanced engine. If you send them your old cover they have a slave crank and flywheel they use to ensure the new cover is balance to exactly match the old one, hopefully avoiding any vibration problems using a stock unbalanced cover could cause.
Westfield 129
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Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by Westfield 129 »

Is vibration on balanced engines a problem when replacing the clutch?

I have been replacing clutches on balanced engines for about 40 years, and have NEVER had a problem with an engine coming out of balance when the clutch was changed. In racing, it is just not practical to rebuild every engine just because the clutch was worn. This includes engines with both iron and alloy flywheels, custom built elastomeric or fluid crank dampers, single and multi disc clutches, through numerous changes due to the ravages of racing (in come cases, after every event). Everything from factory balanced 1300~2000cc Alfas, early 60s Lancias, Triumphs, Healeys, Spridgits and all manner of small and big block Fords, Chevys and Chryslers. Engines redlined from 7200 RPM to 9000 and more.

All clutches that I receive, from OEMs to custom built, are "balanced". While I will occasionally supply the engine balancing shop with a clutch and flywheel assembly (as in replacement after it exploded at the drag strip), most of the time I will leave off the clutch, or have it balanced separately if I am in doubt... Bit I can't remember when the last time I had a clutch balanced...

Is the problem a real one, or just a theoretical bit that you worry about?

I understand the need to have a near perfect reciprocating assembly, but there is no reason to think that all of your expensive balancing work is useless because you need to replace a clutch.

The fact is that even if you send your clutch to the capable people at Peter May, it still was not balanced on your flywheel/crank/damper assembly AND... If you are running a stock type elastomeric crank damper assembly, it has likely slipped if you are running any more than 6000 RPM, screwing up your engine's balance (and maybe changing your timing mark location) without changing anything... I always run a racing type damper designed for high RPM use.

And, you can always give your cover to a rebuilder if you worry about the basic balance. Using your original cover, pressure plate, disc and springs should not change the balance any appreciable amount. In fact, even the covers are balanced at the factory... So, it really doesn't matter.

Has anyone actually made the 7 port head fit the W11 chassis? I have been thinking about that setup for a few years, but have yet to figure out how to get it to fit with carburetors and air cleaners without cutting out the chassis brace and re locating it.
erictharg
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by erictharg »

The fact that the cover I removed had been drilled to remove metal for balance when the engine was originally machined and balanced tells me the factory balance of the cover was to a looser spec than my machinist wanted to achieve for the A Series. There's enough anecdotal evidence of people replacing covers without re-balancing and having problems not to spend the extra £30 having the new cover balanced to match the old one. As far as I know all the serious A Series racers here would not replace a cover without re-balancing it. But, hey, you pay your money and take your choice!
For the 7 port, my eye tells me the carbs would sit above the chassis rail as the inlet stubs are angled upwards slightly, but all the data I've seen on 7 port performance show the biggest gains to be at higher revs (7000+), meaning you still need a fancy aftermarket billet crank and rods to get the most out of them. To me it all adds up to too much cost to be worth pursuing.
jonclancy
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by jonclancy »

Funnily enough, the clutch cover balancing question came up in conversation here. It's nice to know that if you want to have that done, the service is readily available through Peter May.

Charles, did you ever pick up your vingage foot-pump? Yes, I have been stalking you on TenTenths! :D
Westfield 129
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Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by Westfield 129 »

Traditionally, the way to handle a clutch replacement is to send the clutch and flywheel to the machinist or clutch specialist for resurfacing of the flywheel (or replacement of the clutch facing if using an alloy flywheel), and balancing of the flywheel with the new clutch assembly. The flywheel comes off with the clutch easily enough, and should always be resurfaced when replacing the disc and cover. That way, you get a balanced flywheel assembly with the clutch, and your engine balance job remains intact.

That's what we do here, when we are not changing the clutch in the dirt in the paddock.

If you balance the clutch on someone else's flywheel, it still wont be balanced to match your engine. You have to put it on your balanced flywheel and then correct the clutch cover for balance.
adamwilkinson
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:17 pm

Re: Toyota 4AGE into Eleven will go (one way or another)

Post by adamwilkinson »

Yes an unbalanced clutch cover car shag a crank! we bent a crank (standard material) when we replaced a broken clutch cover!
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