Right I'm intending to provoke a good natured argument here, as I'm scratching my brain about which set of oily bits to go for....
So, according to the DVLA, one can get an age related plate using only a single donor's steering and axles (front and rear). This is a relaxation compared to the old points system for registration where you would have had to have used the donor engine plus the other bits to keep the aged plate and avoid the dreaded 'Q' (for our far away, non U.K. friends, a number plate starting with a Q, which is awarded when you register a car that is using bits sourced from a variety of sources rather than one donor car, labels the car as a kit car rather than a possible old racing car, like wot we all want to drive, and is non transferable, so once you have a Q you are stuck with it)
The price of donor Midgets has rocketed, as we have seen, to the point where I am wondering if it is more sensible to go with another engine/gearbox combination. Its going to cost well over GBP1000 to buy a complete a series engine and a load more to refresh it. Add on a type9 conversion and it could well be north of 2000, and it's not the lightest package either...
So pros are: it's a well trodden path, good parts availability, easy if not cheap 5 speed conversion (which I want), it fits, except for the ground clearance, easy wiring, serviceability, vintage look cos it is vintage...!
Cons: weight, cost, fragility, sump clearance, oil leaks, pricey and heavy 5 speed conversion.
What are the alternatives?
Suzuki a la Caterham 160 (more or less a Cappuccino engine and box, a turbo 3 pot with a v light alloy 5 speed as standard). I dithered and didn't buy a Cappo engine and box for 350 quid the other day, so they are cheap and about 80 horses.
Suzuki a la Carry van, a 1300 slant engine 5 speed box, low compression so could supercharge, only 60 horses as standard. Can bolt on a 15 or 1600 block and the G13B twin cam head if one can be found (100hp+). Decent ground clearance, v light.
K series. Cheap as chips (100 quid cheap) to buy, needs the pricey 5 speed type 9 and a load of pricey Caterham bits to fit inc dry sump as Mark Woodbridge showed. Easy 150 hp with stock bits though.
Other stuff: flat four BMW bike, Subaru, etc etc etc
Anyone any thoughts?
Tim
Ok, so why an A series?
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bluelotus57
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:40 pm
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Before choice the a series for my car, i evaluated to fit a k series
but it's tall the fit is tight and need dry sump for ground clearence .
A German guy had fit a Ford sigma 1.6 engine . Light, compact , right look.
The only downside is the position of the exaust on the right side which obliges
to rebuid the pontoon.
I think no one boxer engine fit on eleven frame.
but it's tall the fit is tight and need dry sump for ground clearence .
A German guy had fit a Ford sigma 1.6 engine . Light, compact , right look.
The only downside is the position of the exaust on the right side which obliges
to rebuid the pontoon.
I think no one boxer engine fit on eleven frame.
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Simon Marks
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:05 pm
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Hi, Tim,
When I first explored building an Eleven, I was the proud owner of a pair of Toyota 4A-GE engines, plus one five speed gearbox to suit. I actually visited the factory and bounced the idea of Toyota powering an Eleven off Mark Walker and, as well as not being sure if they would fit suggested that the finished car would hold its value better with an A series. Looking at the prices being asked for the few Elevens that come up for sale, this looks to be a fair assessment. I believe that the Midget was originally chosen as a donor car as it had a suitable tracked axle and an engine that would give a 1950s period accurate feel!
I was recently looking at a sketch that someone had done to explore the idea of installing a Subaru engine in an SE chassis and there simply wasn't the width to accommodate everything without tube modifications - as well as (in an Eleven) needing the right hand pontoon modified to match the left (for the second exhaust). The wonderful 1958 Lotus Buick shows that something like this would be possible - a modern take on this would be a Jaguar X-Type V6 and Mazda 6-speed gearbox - but the fuel tank would end up behind the seats and the bonnet would need bulging like a Lotus 15/19.
The modern twin cam heads are all much bulkier than the simple A series and will always give "packaging" issues in the Eleven - but not insurmountably so to the determined. A friend in the local WSCC group says that I should fit a BMW motorcycle cylinder head to my A series (there is one that has been adapted before apparently) to get a power hike. There is a well-documented 4A-GE conversion in these pages and a (ex-Formula Ford) Zetec is currently being installed in a car so it can be done.
Since building my car, I have been telling people that if they want to build a "standard" 70bhp Eleven, they would be best buying a reasonable midget (with nice wheels) for £3-4,000 and then you wouldn't need to spend very much on servicing / improving the donor parts. I actually managed to sell the shell from my donor (despite it not being very attractive) so I think that a presentable trimmed Midget shell would actually have a good resale value (a Heritage bodyshell in primer is £9,250). If you were going ford 5-speed, why not go for a cheaper 1500cc donor, get hold of an A series and register an engine change to 1275cc. Buying the 5-speed through Westfield means that you would then be filling in your sourcing certificate as bits from the donor or Westfield so absolutely no problem with an age related plate - even on the old rules.
I've just fitted longer Protech supplied springs and shock absorbers to my car and the ground clearance is much less of an issue. I have a shallower, wider sump to go on (if No 2 son ever gets round to adding brackets for an aluminium skid plate to bolt directly beneath) which will give me another 3/4". Set aside £750ish for these modifications (probably mostly recoverable were you to sell the car) and that is one big demerit removed.
I like the "classic" feel of he Eleven. My Lotus Sunbeam would probably be rather amazing with some electronically controlled fuel injection and ignition, but it starts readily on its 45 Dellortos and Lucas distributor, has only let me down once with a failed rotor arm in 24 years (I now carry a spare) and sounds lovely - so I don't have an urge to sanitise it!
Simon
When I first explored building an Eleven, I was the proud owner of a pair of Toyota 4A-GE engines, plus one five speed gearbox to suit. I actually visited the factory and bounced the idea of Toyota powering an Eleven off Mark Walker and, as well as not being sure if they would fit suggested that the finished car would hold its value better with an A series. Looking at the prices being asked for the few Elevens that come up for sale, this looks to be a fair assessment. I believe that the Midget was originally chosen as a donor car as it had a suitable tracked axle and an engine that would give a 1950s period accurate feel!
I was recently looking at a sketch that someone had done to explore the idea of installing a Subaru engine in an SE chassis and there simply wasn't the width to accommodate everything without tube modifications - as well as (in an Eleven) needing the right hand pontoon modified to match the left (for the second exhaust). The wonderful 1958 Lotus Buick shows that something like this would be possible - a modern take on this would be a Jaguar X-Type V6 and Mazda 6-speed gearbox - but the fuel tank would end up behind the seats and the bonnet would need bulging like a Lotus 15/19.
The modern twin cam heads are all much bulkier than the simple A series and will always give "packaging" issues in the Eleven - but not insurmountably so to the determined. A friend in the local WSCC group says that I should fit a BMW motorcycle cylinder head to my A series (there is one that has been adapted before apparently) to get a power hike. There is a well-documented 4A-GE conversion in these pages and a (ex-Formula Ford) Zetec is currently being installed in a car so it can be done.
Since building my car, I have been telling people that if they want to build a "standard" 70bhp Eleven, they would be best buying a reasonable midget (with nice wheels) for £3-4,000 and then you wouldn't need to spend very much on servicing / improving the donor parts. I actually managed to sell the shell from my donor (despite it not being very attractive) so I think that a presentable trimmed Midget shell would actually have a good resale value (a Heritage bodyshell in primer is £9,250). If you were going ford 5-speed, why not go for a cheaper 1500cc donor, get hold of an A series and register an engine change to 1275cc. Buying the 5-speed through Westfield means that you would then be filling in your sourcing certificate as bits from the donor or Westfield so absolutely no problem with an age related plate - even on the old rules.
I've just fitted longer Protech supplied springs and shock absorbers to my car and the ground clearance is much less of an issue. I have a shallower, wider sump to go on (if No 2 son ever gets round to adding brackets for an aluminium skid plate to bolt directly beneath) which will give me another 3/4". Set aside £750ish for these modifications (probably mostly recoverable were you to sell the car) and that is one big demerit removed.
I like the "classic" feel of he Eleven. My Lotus Sunbeam would probably be rather amazing with some electronically controlled fuel injection and ignition, but it starts readily on its 45 Dellortos and Lucas distributor, has only let me down once with a failed rotor arm in 24 years (I now carry a spare) and sounds lovely - so I don't have an urge to sanitise it!
Simon
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
I can sum it up in two words:The A Series fits. It fits beneath the bonnet, it firs the supplied mounts, with the standard sump.
Sure, you can lighten it by about 30 lbs or more if you go with an alloy head, gear starter and a mini alternator, and you can get 120 HP reliably if you go with a 1380 and a good cylinder head (the alloy one is a good choice to start). The supplied headers fit as well, and you donot have to modify the chassis. This really speeds the build and greatly reduces the difficulty of special fabrication and problem solving. as well as not having to cut a hole in the lovely bonnet.
And, you have extra money that you didn't spend on special fabrication to spend on the LSD, Protech dampers and race axles.
You can install a Ford Crossflow, but again, you may run into problems with the pan and the bonnet clerance. Tht said, I have seen a few cars with the entire twin Weber carbureted cross flows fitted beneath the stock bonnet. It's a good match if you have the right parts combiation.
While you in the UK have your own specific problems with the draconian IVA, the most important factor is that if you use an A series, you will FINISH THE CAR. If you get bogged down with the problems of custom mounts, engine setback, custom transmission mounts, custom drive shaft, cooling system issues and bonnet clearance, the job of assembly becomes a magnatude more difficult. I have seen a number of "improved" W11s that have never gone beyond the basic frame stage, with some part cut off. The worst are cobbled together and just can't be driven. If you are worried about doing any fabrication at all (such as hand filing a part, beinding a brake rod, cutting and fitting some sheat alloy, or drilling and riveting a battery bracket, then an engine swap is not what you really want to do.
While it is possible to install a different engine:I have see an Alfa 1600 (bonnet buldge mandatory), Toyota (ditto) and Ford X Flows (with and without buldge) and a Twink (blisters again), and a few have been done quite successfully. Mostly it is beyond the abilities of most builders to complete the project.
With dedication, time and tallent, you can do anything. But.. The learnig curve can be steep and expensive.
Why bother?
I turned down the purchase of a very nice Twin cam powerd car as it was just too compromised, and didn't drive as well as a nicely prepped A powered W11. Wnen it cane to a total rebuild of my A powered own car, I oopted for a hot Spridtet 1380 with a Datsun box. I have never regretted my decision. While it was expensive, it was not any more expensive then bluepringing any other 4 cylinder, and piston prices were about the same as well. HP cost money, regardless of what engine you start with, as are basic over haul expenses once you require borig, pistons and crank shaft services.
As far as the problems of A Series oil leaks... Well, I don't really have any and never have with my rebuilt engine. I found that proper line boring of the mains with the rear main cover installed will set the proper clearance to the crank spiral (slinger) and any leakage is minimal mist. No puddles under my car, even after a 1000 mile day. The engine is still tight after 20K+ miles, and no horses have escaped.
It's always fun to think of new engines for the W11. I have done drewings for a Rover 3.5 V8 and a 1300 Alfa, but in the end... The BMC A seems to be the best setup if you actually want to build and finish your car within the current decade.
Sure, you can lighten it by about 30 lbs or more if you go with an alloy head, gear starter and a mini alternator, and you can get 120 HP reliably if you go with a 1380 and a good cylinder head (the alloy one is a good choice to start). The supplied headers fit as well, and you donot have to modify the chassis. This really speeds the build and greatly reduces the difficulty of special fabrication and problem solving. as well as not having to cut a hole in the lovely bonnet.
And, you have extra money that you didn't spend on special fabrication to spend on the LSD, Protech dampers and race axles.
You can install a Ford Crossflow, but again, you may run into problems with the pan and the bonnet clerance. Tht said, I have seen a few cars with the entire twin Weber carbureted cross flows fitted beneath the stock bonnet. It's a good match if you have the right parts combiation.
While you in the UK have your own specific problems with the draconian IVA, the most important factor is that if you use an A series, you will FINISH THE CAR. If you get bogged down with the problems of custom mounts, engine setback, custom transmission mounts, custom drive shaft, cooling system issues and bonnet clearance, the job of assembly becomes a magnatude more difficult. I have seen a number of "improved" W11s that have never gone beyond the basic frame stage, with some part cut off. The worst are cobbled together and just can't be driven. If you are worried about doing any fabrication at all (such as hand filing a part, beinding a brake rod, cutting and fitting some sheat alloy, or drilling and riveting a battery bracket, then an engine swap is not what you really want to do.
While it is possible to install a different engine:I have see an Alfa 1600 (bonnet buldge mandatory), Toyota (ditto) and Ford X Flows (with and without buldge) and a Twink (blisters again), and a few have been done quite successfully. Mostly it is beyond the abilities of most builders to complete the project.
With dedication, time and tallent, you can do anything. But.. The learnig curve can be steep and expensive.
Why bother?
I turned down the purchase of a very nice Twin cam powerd car as it was just too compromised, and didn't drive as well as a nicely prepped A powered W11. Wnen it cane to a total rebuild of my A powered own car, I oopted for a hot Spridtet 1380 with a Datsun box. I have never regretted my decision. While it was expensive, it was not any more expensive then bluepringing any other 4 cylinder, and piston prices were about the same as well. HP cost money, regardless of what engine you start with, as are basic over haul expenses once you require borig, pistons and crank shaft services.
As far as the problems of A Series oil leaks... Well, I don't really have any and never have with my rebuilt engine. I found that proper line boring of the mains with the rear main cover installed will set the proper clearance to the crank spiral (slinger) and any leakage is minimal mist. No puddles under my car, even after a 1000 mile day. The engine is still tight after 20K+ miles, and no horses have escaped.
It's always fun to think of new engines for the W11. I have done drewings for a Rover 3.5 V8 and a 1300 Alfa, but in the end... The BMC A seems to be the best setup if you actually want to build and finish your car within the current decade.
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biggles
- Posts: 316
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:10 am
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Very good points all.
I have had a look at ford and the k series in more depth, and although nice to drive, they are too involved to get to fit.
Jan makes a very good point in that the chassis, as it comes from Westfield, is set up for the A series. But I am sourcing my own chassis so won't have to cut off engine mounts etc. Also this will be my fourth kit build and I have restored a TVR too. My last kit build was a locost race car, and this is pretty much a repeat of that with a bit more bodywork!
I'm going to push on with sourcing all the bits and getting the chassis made while keeping an eye out for the oily bits... Part of the fun is having a tinker over the winter so the engine may change over time. If I fall over a good cheap engine/box then I will buy it, whether it is an A series, 660 Suzuki Cappo or Suzuki carry. The last two have too many pluses (lightweight, 5 speed, fit easily without ground clearance issues) to throw over for the A series just because it's the normal way to do it. Anyone who knows me might say I'm not entirely normal anyway!
Any more suggestions for compact, lightweight, good value power plants received gratefully!
Regards all Tim
Any other suggestion
I have had a look at ford and the k series in more depth, and although nice to drive, they are too involved to get to fit.
Jan makes a very good point in that the chassis, as it comes from Westfield, is set up for the A series. But I am sourcing my own chassis so won't have to cut off engine mounts etc. Also this will be my fourth kit build and I have restored a TVR too. My last kit build was a locost race car, and this is pretty much a repeat of that with a bit more bodywork!
I'm going to push on with sourcing all the bits and getting the chassis made while keeping an eye out for the oily bits... Part of the fun is having a tinker over the winter so the engine may change over time. If I fall over a good cheap engine/box then I will buy it, whether it is an A series, 660 Suzuki Cappo or Suzuki carry. The last two have too many pluses (lightweight, 5 speed, fit easily without ground clearance issues) to throw over for the A series just because it's the normal way to do it. Anyone who knows me might say I'm not entirely normal anyway!
Any more suggestions for compact, lightweight, good value power plants received gratefully!
Regards all Tim
Any other suggestion
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jonjh1964
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:10 pm
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Apart from the size, ease, suitability etc above don't forget nostalgia - I suspect that many of the Eleven builders/owners are of an age than means that much of their youth was spent tinkering with spridgets/minis with results largely compromised by the ability to buy parts. The A Series I'm building for mine is a top trumps of all the mods I'd have loved to have been able to afford, back in the day, way before I had the financial ability to have two Westfields vanity projects built/being built from new.
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alleggerita
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:06 pm
- Location: Uden, the Netherlands
- Contact:
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Mine will have an 1172 cc Ford sidevalve. You can’t come closer to the original Eleven concept except with a Climax engine. Attached photo is the actual engine still in its donor car. Power isn’t very spectacular in standard guise, so I am already contemplating a compressor.
[attachment=0]IMG_0650.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=0]IMG_0650.JPG[/attachment]
- Attachments
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Lotus used A Series engines from '57 on. My own & Series 1 (America) had a 948, and it was an engine that could be had in an 11.
The old Side valve Ford was a 7 engine as well.
All I can add is that a W11 that can be steered with the throttle is a more fun W1 than one that can't.
The original W11 chaassis was built around two engines, the Ford X Flow and the BMC A. An X Flow will fit beneath the bonnet without a bulge if properly done.
So how come n one mentined the Mazda Rotary? Too wierd?
'
The old Side valve Ford was a 7 engine as well.
All I can add is that a W11 that can be steered with the throttle is a more fun W1 than one that can't.
The original W11 chaassis was built around two engines, the Ford X Flow and the BMC A. An X Flow will fit beneath the bonnet without a bulge if properly done.
So how come n one mentined the Mazda Rotary? Too wierd?
'
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biggles
- Posts: 316
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:10 am
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
I did think about a rotary as Mazda RX8 prices are low. The other day I saw a 60,000 mile runner for less than 1,000 pounds. However, they have a poor reputation for mechanical reliability and appalling fuel consumption.
Also, to be frank, I think it's more power than I need! I would prefer to have a car that I can drive with full throttle on the road without instantly risking my licence and my life! 100bhp ish would be the sweet spot I think, and if I'm running 145 tyres then probably a prudent amount too. As you said Jan, it's nice to be able to balance a car progressively on the throttle...
Also, to be frank, I think it's more power than I need! I would prefer to have a car that I can drive with full throttle on the road without instantly risking my licence and my life! 100bhp ish would be the sweet spot I think, and if I'm running 145 tyres then probably a prudent amount too. As you said Jan, it's nice to be able to balance a car progressively on the throttle...
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biggles
- Posts: 316
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:10 am
Re: Ok, so why an A series?
Blown 1172 sounds like fun! The whine of a supercharger is part of the attraction of the Suzuki carry...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3BLdltbTn5k
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3BLdltbTn5k