Winged Sump

[jonclancy]

A couple of thoughts - and thanks for raising the questions, Splat.

WRT the sump drain, you can have it placed anywhere you like. I wanted to keep a clean base, and hence the side mounting. The clutch slave on one side and the chassis rail on the other both preclude the drain plug being mounted there. Here's a scenario: bonnet off, oil tray in position, back jacked up, and just reach over the tyre to let the oil go - and to spin off the filter. Better still if you can jack the rear nearside on a small quick-lift or something.

The access to the sump bolts is indeed made more fiddly, as I found out while lying under the car with my nose a couple of cm away from the sump and my reading glasses not man enough!! Actually, it was I suggested earlier that you would be better off installing this on a ramp or over a pit. You'll want to completely degrease your engine to squeaky-clean before removing the sump. I'd suggest that 30 mins of ramp-time would be money well spent, unless you are able to raise the car up a couple of feet on your stands. We've got a couple of race-car hoists planned to lift my car high enough to allow ease of access to the bolts. You can get in there with a spanner or slim socket if you can just get your body nearby (and your eyes work well enough at close range!). Toy can see the clearances avaialbe from my earlier dimensioned pics.

Jan, I don't have any drawings. Gary has as it was his detailed design, but my work has been posted in this thread.

[Westfield 129]

I have had a few inquiries. I have three pans here suitable for modification. If I could get the drawings, I could make a few... Also correct the problem with the sump bolt clearance, maybe.

[jonclancy]

I don't see a problem with the sump bolt clearance. What mods did you have in mind, Jan?

[Westfield 129]

Eliminate the protection plates that hang down. Using the sump as a basis for protection of other components usually doesn't work out well. Any hard impact on the plates may fracture the sump, and it is not likely that the plates would protect the parts that probably don't need protection.

You said that the sump bolts were harder to reach. I am also thinking about the spin on filter as well. Relocation of the filter would be easy, though.

[jonclancy]

Here's along-overdue update!!!

I have the sump now fitted and the engine running. Full oil pressure while stationary.

I just need to change over the crank pulley back to the original (the nicer looking of the two I have, post-painting doesn't appear to run true) and then take it for a run around a roundabout both ways and test running, hot, oil pressure under manoeuvring.

WRT fitting, you will need to reverse some of the engine back plate nuts, bolts to ensure clearance. Otherwise, it all seemed to be fitted without drama. It is fiddly, though, so I would highly recommend a lift to gain access.

The production items will be utilise your original sump plug. Strictly ONLY SOLUBLE media will be used to basting prior to coating in satin black. You will need to check that the sump is free of debris before you fit. There should not be any, as they will be soda-blasted and rinsed prior to coating - but do check!

If there is a demand, we can develop a bolt-in windage tray as well. Gary said it should be reasonably simple to do - we have a block and crank/piston set at the workshop to set the height of the windage tray during assembly. Any thoughts?

Here are the pics taken a couple of days ago.

BTW, I'm currently having a data meltdown with a failed SSD, so apologies for the slow progress. Words to the wise: Do a back-up today!!!

[jonclancy]

Update:

I went out for a longish drive today. Oil P stays put under cornering and braking etc.

However, I found that the oil P gauge followed the revs. GIven some WOT, the oil P rose to nearly 100PSI as the revs spun up. Conversely, the hot oil P was down at around 15 PSI at idle at the end of the run. I did not have oil P fluctuations like this prior to the sump going on, but there again, I have used some sacrificial stunt-oil and the old filter.

I'm only running el-cheapo 20/50 oil as a test for leaks - there seem to be none! Will hot-change the oil now to Halfords Classic 20W50 and change the filter. I can also pick up a new pressure relief ball, uprated spring and washer for a few quid locally. The 1275 Mini items have the same part numbers and are available from Somerford Mini.

[jonclancy]

Another test drive with a new filter confirmed the fluctuation oil P. We're going to have to install a trapdoor.

I'll be reinstalling a standard sump back to back to prove it's the sump and not anything else. Sorry, but it'll be a while before we do any production fo these - they have to be perfect before anyone gets one!

I didn't realise, but Speedwell have nicked our design and gone back in time to market it!

Seriously, have a look here - scroll one page up when the link opens:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V3ST ... mp&f=false

[Westfield 129]

That's the pan from "Winner's Circle" here in the US. it is very expensive, and has a couple of trap doors, along with being about 40 mm deeper, about the same as a stock pan.

Speedwell Engineering US has one (originally from Winner's Circle), and will make them, one off, for a substantial fee. Lots of fabrication.

Your oil pressure problem is probably due to a bad oil pressure relief valve. If the oil pressure rises and falls in relation to RPM, check the relief valve.

Any problems with oil pressure during braking and cornering would occur even at steady state throttle.

Also if you had a "windage" problem (crank knifing through the oil, causing the oil to be whipped into a foamy dessert), you would see a general drop in pressure. I am not really sure that your problem requires a trap door. Maybe the pickup height is a little too high.

When the engine is running at high RPM, the oil pump evacuates the pan, and the oil drips back from the top end of the engine back to the pan. Sometimes, this takes a bit too long... and the oil pressure drops. That is why the amount of oil at the bottom of the pan is critical, as is the amount of oil available in the system. Sometimes, an additional quart of oil ls all that is needed. You might try to add a quart and see if that fixes your oil pressure problem.

The grade of oil or its cost is of no consequence.

A windage tray would be an excellent addition, but I have yet to see one on either the Winner's Circle pan, or any modified stock pan. It could be that there is more than enough clearance between the oil and the crank so that the tray is not necessary, and a simple "scraper" does the job (a scraper is a blade that is installed along side the crank, close to the throws, to "scrape" off the oil, and allow it to drip back to the bottom of the pan. To really determine what needs to be done as far as crank windage, you would need to put some windows in the pan so that the oil splash can be observed. I used to manufacture camera systems just for that purpose (GM, Ford, Mercedes, Porsche were clients).

[jonclancy]

Thanks for your thoughts, Jan.

I will revisit the pressure relief valve. A top tip I read on one of the Midget forums: with the spring removed, mark the relief valve cap just where the thread in the block bites. This is because you need to push againsts the spring pressure and turn the cap to reinstall. It's a difficult job with the engine still in the car, but this tip helps as you can lever the cap into position with a strip of wood and screwdriver, and just a 1/4 turn will hold it in place while you can relieve the pressure and hand-tighten.

I needed to remove the dizzy, too. Make sure you mark it on the base/body with Tippex or similar to ensure the timing isn't thrown out.

The pressure relief plunger is the challenge. I understand it is alloy, so a flexible pick up tool won't help to retrieve it from the housing. I was thinking about a spot of superglue on the end of a short wooden dowel to pull it free. I don't want to try a blob of Blu-Tak for obvious reasons. Any thoughts? I've just remembered I can have a look at my other 1275 engine and see if there are any clues there. Fitting the ball valve will be a cinch once the plunger is removed.

I will try another quart of oil, though. I've got a spare sump to go off to be soda-blasted and repainted (might as well do the job properly before it gets fitted to the car) - that'll probably run into a few weeks what with Xmas/work etc, so I have nothing to lose in running the car up to hot and adding some oil to see what the effect is. If we can get a proper level that maintains pressure when hot, then I can remark the dipstick.

We were talking about windows in sumps to see oil splash. I thought Gary was joking...

[adamwilkinson]

ahh the fun of winged sumps, we never got to the bottom of oil pressure issues with our one - no matter what baffles were installed. For this reason we took the plunge and dry sumped.

If you're taking out the pressure relief valve, change it for the ball bearing type as the plunger can stick causing oil pressure issues