Have found the ride very hard , particularly from the rear suspension , this with the effectively NOS Spax shocks that came with the 25 year old unbuilt kit I bought , there are no markings and I have no idea what the spring rate is and it was near impossible to get any deflection of the rear suspension,consequently the car was difficult on anything but a smooth road. I have read all the entries regards Spring and Dampers on the forum and as a quick fix without any outlay I followed Westfield 129 suggestions regards the tightening of the rear suspension bolts and the effect on the action of the suspension itself also in having the damper adjustment set to full soft . These adjustments gave a immediate improvement in ride / handling / harshness , will investigate further into spring rates . So far the only indication I have of this is that when unloaded on the bench and fitted to the shocker the spring measures 275 mm , fitted to car and car on the ground the spring measures 240 mm (both sides) thus a static deflection of 35 mm . I will also source some means of measuring the weight on each wheel .
Bob Whittaker
Spring & Dampers
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Spring & Dampers
The ride problem is not unusual. In fact, it is universal. Three things fix this: Loosen the bushings front and rear, get rid of the SPAX (or GAZ) and replace them with double adjustable Protechs, and change the springs. The springs you have for your early car are a compromise.
The springs you have are around 10~12" long, fitted to a shock body that is designed for a 7~8" spring. The rate is around 80 lb/in front, with a 4" preload, and about 55 or so in the rear with a 4" preload.
This is not really the way to do this.
You have two problems, actually. Your SPAX will last only a few hundred miles at best, and will lose all their fluid within a couple of hundred miles if not on your first drive. They are very poor dampers, and are already more than 30 years old.
My suggestion is this:
Splurge and order Protech series 400 double adjustable dampers in the 1.9" diameter, as they fit better than the later 2.25" dampers, which actually bind the front end at the bump end of the suspension travel.
Order your dampers to the same extended length as your current SPAX. The
If you drive with a passenger all the time with more than 300 lbs in the cockpit, you will need the 200 lb.in REAR springs. If you drive primarily alone, with an occasional passenger, and a total passenger weight of less than 300 lbs, a spring rate of 150 lb.in will be ideal. The spring length should be 8" in the rear. This should fit right onto the damper and hand tightened. This should give the ideal ride height in the rear.
In the front, use a 350 lb. in. spring with a length of 7". Again, when hand installed, the ride height should come out about right.
Set the driver's side 3/4" higher front and rear than the passenger side, unladen. If the driver is from 170 ~ 200 lbs. the ride height should be then checked with the driver in the seat. It should be 5" front and 6.5 in the rear. If you are running the 15" vintage race tires, figure about .25" higher at both ends.
If you get this right, the diagonal weight should be at about 51%, easily adjusted when doing a corner weight setup. Or, you can just drive the car.
ALIGNMENT WILL BE DONE WITH THE DRIVER IN THE CAR.
The Protech dampers will need to have their master adjusters turned down about 1 turn to recalibrate the dampers for the lighter car. Protech can do this when they set up the dampers prior to shipping.
The dampers cost about £700 shipped to the US. Probably about £600 in the UK. Worth every penny. If you get them, we can go over the adjustment procedure when you get them.
If any of this is confusing, just contact me directly and I can walk you through the chassis setup.
Note that I have also done this with less expensive AVO dampers, but they are not nearly as good, and don't like high force/velocity movement, like when hitting a bump. They will go full stiff, as though they have bottomed, but are actually at half travel.
Just say'n... The Protechs actually work.
My GAZ on my 1000 mile RHD chassis have become incredibly stiff at the lowest setting, and they are going to be replaced with 1.9" Protechs in about a week.
Worth every penny if you actually drive the car.
The springs you have are around 10~12" long, fitted to a shock body that is designed for a 7~8" spring. The rate is around 80 lb/in front, with a 4" preload, and about 55 or so in the rear with a 4" preload.
This is not really the way to do this.
You have two problems, actually. Your SPAX will last only a few hundred miles at best, and will lose all their fluid within a couple of hundred miles if not on your first drive. They are very poor dampers, and are already more than 30 years old.
My suggestion is this:
Splurge and order Protech series 400 double adjustable dampers in the 1.9" diameter, as they fit better than the later 2.25" dampers, which actually bind the front end at the bump end of the suspension travel.
Order your dampers to the same extended length as your current SPAX. The
If you drive with a passenger all the time with more than 300 lbs in the cockpit, you will need the 200 lb.in REAR springs. If you drive primarily alone, with an occasional passenger, and a total passenger weight of less than 300 lbs, a spring rate of 150 lb.in will be ideal. The spring length should be 8" in the rear. This should fit right onto the damper and hand tightened. This should give the ideal ride height in the rear.
In the front, use a 350 lb. in. spring with a length of 7". Again, when hand installed, the ride height should come out about right.
Set the driver's side 3/4" higher front and rear than the passenger side, unladen. If the driver is from 170 ~ 200 lbs. the ride height should be then checked with the driver in the seat. It should be 5" front and 6.5 in the rear. If you are running the 15" vintage race tires, figure about .25" higher at both ends.
If you get this right, the diagonal weight should be at about 51%, easily adjusted when doing a corner weight setup. Or, you can just drive the car.
ALIGNMENT WILL BE DONE WITH THE DRIVER IN THE CAR.
The Protech dampers will need to have their master adjusters turned down about 1 turn to recalibrate the dampers for the lighter car. Protech can do this when they set up the dampers prior to shipping.
The dampers cost about £700 shipped to the US. Probably about £600 in the UK. Worth every penny. If you get them, we can go over the adjustment procedure when you get them.
If any of this is confusing, just contact me directly and I can walk you through the chassis setup.
Note that I have also done this with less expensive AVO dampers, but they are not nearly as good, and don't like high force/velocity movement, like when hitting a bump. They will go full stiff, as though they have bottomed, but are actually at half travel.
Just say'n... The Protechs actually work.
My GAZ on my 1000 mile RHD chassis have become incredibly stiff at the lowest setting, and they are going to be replaced with 1.9" Protechs in about a week.
Worth every penny if you actually drive the car.
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bobwhittaker
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:42 pm
Re: Spring & Dampers
To Westfield 129
Thanks for the prompt and comprehensive response . It all makes sense now , I will act on your suggestions . Cheers Bob Whittaker
Thanks for the prompt and comprehensive response . It all makes sense now , I will act on your suggestions . Cheers Bob Whittaker
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Spring & Dampers
I have a new set of Protechs coming shortly. Check with me in two weeks and I will tell you if the revised setup fits properly, and the setup procedure, if not the actual settings for these custom built dampers.
You will be able to contact Protech and ask for the same setup that they built for me. They should have the basic calibration for the W11 when they arrive. Then they need to have the compression and rebound set.
I cannot stress enough how important the chassis setup is for best handling and ride. Ride height, proper damping and lack of friction in suspension movement and proper alignment is the key to making the car work like the vintage sports racer that it is.
Check your rear bushings for fore/aft compliance or torn rubber by rocking the car back and forth in gear. If you hear a clunk and see the nose of the diff bobbing up and down, you may need to replace a pair as they often fail in pairs, diagonally opposite to each other. There should be some small movement (after all, the bushings do have some compliance to allow the 4 bar setup to work), but clunks from the suspension are not what you are looking for. Check the nose of the diff, and the locating bolts for the arms for too much compliance.
In front, loosen up the bushings and bounce the car. Then retorque to about 5 lb.ft using new nylocks (you may also use precision -7 AN aircraft bolts with split pins and AN crown nuts. The entire bolt and nut should just rotate at about 5 lb. ft torque. If the torque is less, tighten it a little. You don't want rattling, but you do want just tight enough so that the bushing can still turn and the front suspension is free to bounce.
You may want to lube the suspension bolts with synthetic chassis grease to further reduce friction.
With the new dampers, you will be amazed by the ride and handling. MUCH more comfortable.
And, with one click on the compression rear adjuster, you can change the handling balance from neutral to slightly over steering. This is the way that the car was supposed to be when it was designed.
You will be able to contact Protech and ask for the same setup that they built for me. They should have the basic calibration for the W11 when they arrive. Then they need to have the compression and rebound set.
I cannot stress enough how important the chassis setup is for best handling and ride. Ride height, proper damping and lack of friction in suspension movement and proper alignment is the key to making the car work like the vintage sports racer that it is.
Check your rear bushings for fore/aft compliance or torn rubber by rocking the car back and forth in gear. If you hear a clunk and see the nose of the diff bobbing up and down, you may need to replace a pair as they often fail in pairs, diagonally opposite to each other. There should be some small movement (after all, the bushings do have some compliance to allow the 4 bar setup to work), but clunks from the suspension are not what you are looking for. Check the nose of the diff, and the locating bolts for the arms for too much compliance.
In front, loosen up the bushings and bounce the car. Then retorque to about 5 lb.ft using new nylocks (you may also use precision -7 AN aircraft bolts with split pins and AN crown nuts. The entire bolt and nut should just rotate at about 5 lb. ft torque. If the torque is less, tighten it a little. You don't want rattling, but you do want just tight enough so that the bushing can still turn and the front suspension is free to bounce.
You may want to lube the suspension bolts with synthetic chassis grease to further reduce friction.
With the new dampers, you will be amazed by the ride and handling. MUCH more comfortable.
And, with one click on the compression rear adjuster, you can change the handling balance from neutral to slightly over steering. This is the way that the car was supposed to be when it was designed.
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biggles
- Posts: 316
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:10 am
Re: Spring & Dampers
Jan, if you run the suspension bushes loose, so the central compression tube can rotate, are you not going to get wear of the chassis pick-ups? From what you have said in earlier posts, it sounds as though the standard bushes do not have enough built in rotational range, and break down the rubber element.
Wouldn't a possible solution be a change to bushes using a thicker rubber section and possibly no outer metal element (a la Triumph Spitfire)? The sacrifice might be slightly more lateral flex in the suspension, but no wear in the chassis? Or go with poly bushes?
Regards biggles
Wouldn't a possible solution be a change to bushes using a thicker rubber section and possibly no outer metal element (a la Triumph Spitfire)? The sacrifice might be slightly more lateral flex in the suspension, but no wear in the chassis? Or go with poly bushes?
Regards biggles
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Spring & Dampers
In over 50,000 miles, my front suspension pickups show no wear. Evidently, the center tube of the bushing is softer than the chassis material. Note that there are lots of metal to metal contact points in the Westfield chassis, and the thing seems to last quite well. I also lube the bushing inside and outside. Note that the bushing doesn't rattle. It is securely held in place, but allowed to rotate. The arms are not floopy in the chassis. I imagine the chassis could be protected with some thin thrust washers, and that would not be a bad idea, but may be unnecessary. Anyway, thrust washers would protect the chassis, and allow another point of lubrication. It might work even better.
When I do the comprehensive rebuilt later this year on my old nail, I may set it up with thrust washers in front. I don't think that they are necessary in the rear.
The factory has come down substantially on its torque setting for the suspension, starting with 40 lb.ft. and now about 12 lb.ft. My guess is that the bushing rotates at this lower setting when one figures that some of that torque is being used to overcome the nylock friction. I prefer a setting where about 5 lb.ft. turns the bolt and nut when the washers are lubed. While I don't religiously check this setting, I use a standard box end wrench to check the force necessary to turn the nut and bolt assembly. The force us usually <10 lb.ft. I settled on 5 lb.ft. as it seems to work, and my smaller torque wrench is accurate at that small measurement.
In any case, such a setup was standard on sports racing cars or any car run in competition where the elimination of static friction in the suspension was important. With tight bushings, the W11 has LOTS of static friction, and that is not good for ride or handling.
You are right, there is simply not enough rubber in the bushings, but replacement different part is just about impossible, as the bushings are very small, and the internal 7/16" sleeve is pretty big. There is no room in the arms for larger parts, so to fix this, you will need to fabricate new arms in front (and if you were going to do that, why not fully adjustables with rod ends?), and special arm in the rear with a rod end at one end, and a compliance bushing at the axle, but that is another subject for another time.
The W11 bushings are really more like a vibration isolator than a suspension bushing. Spitfire bushings would be better, and the compliance would not hurt at the rear suspension, as the 4 link needs all the compliance help it can get. Perhaps a urethane bushing, without a shell would work, and I would be willing to try such a thing if I could find one with a proper center sleeve, so that the bushing could be lubricated and allow the center tube to rotate for less static friction.
The problem I have with the current urethane bushings is that they have no sleeve (there is a spritget urethane that is commonly fitted to the top of the king pin/upper arm fulcrum, that doesn't have a sleeve, and gives more compliance than the stock rubber/sleeve bushings. I tossed those old urethanes and went back to the old rubber ones. Much better. Without a sleeve, there is too much wiggling around and space around the suspension bolt and the bushing. Not good.
There are other possibilities, including a delrin/aluminum bushing with a rotating internal sleeve. This would work great on the front, where there is no twisting deflection, but would not work at all in the rear, where compliance is needed to gain articulation of the rear axle, making the chassis more predictable in cornering.
I have tried a full rod end rear (I could not get bushings for the first couple of years), but found that the 4 link really stressed the rod ends and caused excessive play after a few hundred miles, and the handling was not as predictable as it was with the standard Westfield bushings. Also, periodic replacement with high quality rod ends was expensive, at about $700 usd for the entire rear end (10 7/16" competition rod ends strong enough to take tension/compression suspension loads), using the highest grade HD rod ends. I have a beautiful set of alloy arms and Panhard rod, but the cost to use them will buy literally hundreds of suspension bushings... And the compliance bushings actually allow the car to handle better.
Lotus/Caterham cars have MUCH larger bushings, but they too benefit from running loose, though most owners don't do that setup. The early Lotus 7 4 link had larger suspension bushings, and larger suspension bolts. The Lotus guys like to tell me that I am crazy, until the see the bushings in comparison to the parts used on Lotus or Locost cars.
The Westfield's problem is unique, but the solution is very much "old school".
A quick test: With all of your suspension bushings cinched down tight, remove the front bodywork so you can step on the chassis or stand on it, loosen the damper adjustment and bounce the chassis.
You will notice that the chassis will be a bit stiff with a slow rebound. Then, loosen the suspension bolts, and bounce it again. The effort required to move the suspension will be profoundly reduced, and the chassis will respond in rebound much faster.
Then, drive the car. The steering will be even more alive, and have better return characteristics, and the front end will float over bumps. Adjust your dampers to suit, but just enough so that the front end is not "jiggly". The difference is remarkable, in ride, handling and feel.
The rear needs the same setup, but with the earlier cars, were the forward arm mountings are not captured with the shear plates. (you can order these from the factory and weld them in if you want), the bolts need to be loosened just enough so that the bushing can rotate, but not allow bolt deflection. This will feel tight, but that's OK. Properly set up, it takes some force to move the arms at both front and rear, The important part is that the bushing rotates in the chassis.
The most important thing is that the bushings are in good shape when you start. Old bushings will have already spit out their rubber component, and will be rotating and rattling, with plenty of compliance, which really doesn't work properly.
Install fresh bushings for this setup, and you will find that the bushings will last thousands of miles in the rear, rather than just hundreds. Your transition to over steer will be a bit slower and more predictable, and cornering on bumpy roads will be much better. The ride wont kill you, and you can run the dampers at a much lower setting.
Also, if you get this right, a single click on the AVO or GAZ dampers can change the balance from neutral to slightly over steering if you are running an AutoX course, or just need a little more rotation on turn in. The chassis handling characteristics become truly adjustable.
The Protechs change things dramatically, as they have much better high speed (shock speed, not road speed) characteristics, and will damp bumps that will lock a GAZ, AVO single adjustable or SPAX solid at half travel. I will go through the setup of these dampers when they arrive late next week and I put them on my RHD car.
When I do the comprehensive rebuilt later this year on my old nail, I may set it up with thrust washers in front. I don't think that they are necessary in the rear.
The factory has come down substantially on its torque setting for the suspension, starting with 40 lb.ft. and now about 12 lb.ft. My guess is that the bushing rotates at this lower setting when one figures that some of that torque is being used to overcome the nylock friction. I prefer a setting where about 5 lb.ft. turns the bolt and nut when the washers are lubed. While I don't religiously check this setting, I use a standard box end wrench to check the force necessary to turn the nut and bolt assembly. The force us usually <10 lb.ft. I settled on 5 lb.ft. as it seems to work, and my smaller torque wrench is accurate at that small measurement.
In any case, such a setup was standard on sports racing cars or any car run in competition where the elimination of static friction in the suspension was important. With tight bushings, the W11 has LOTS of static friction, and that is not good for ride or handling.
You are right, there is simply not enough rubber in the bushings, but replacement different part is just about impossible, as the bushings are very small, and the internal 7/16" sleeve is pretty big. There is no room in the arms for larger parts, so to fix this, you will need to fabricate new arms in front (and if you were going to do that, why not fully adjustables with rod ends?), and special arm in the rear with a rod end at one end, and a compliance bushing at the axle, but that is another subject for another time.
The W11 bushings are really more like a vibration isolator than a suspension bushing. Spitfire bushings would be better, and the compliance would not hurt at the rear suspension, as the 4 link needs all the compliance help it can get. Perhaps a urethane bushing, without a shell would work, and I would be willing to try such a thing if I could find one with a proper center sleeve, so that the bushing could be lubricated and allow the center tube to rotate for less static friction.
The problem I have with the current urethane bushings is that they have no sleeve (there is a spritget urethane that is commonly fitted to the top of the king pin/upper arm fulcrum, that doesn't have a sleeve, and gives more compliance than the stock rubber/sleeve bushings. I tossed those old urethanes and went back to the old rubber ones. Much better. Without a sleeve, there is too much wiggling around and space around the suspension bolt and the bushing. Not good.
There are other possibilities, including a delrin/aluminum bushing with a rotating internal sleeve. This would work great on the front, where there is no twisting deflection, but would not work at all in the rear, where compliance is needed to gain articulation of the rear axle, making the chassis more predictable in cornering.
I have tried a full rod end rear (I could not get bushings for the first couple of years), but found that the 4 link really stressed the rod ends and caused excessive play after a few hundred miles, and the handling was not as predictable as it was with the standard Westfield bushings. Also, periodic replacement with high quality rod ends was expensive, at about $700 usd for the entire rear end (10 7/16" competition rod ends strong enough to take tension/compression suspension loads), using the highest grade HD rod ends. I have a beautiful set of alloy arms and Panhard rod, but the cost to use them will buy literally hundreds of suspension bushings... And the compliance bushings actually allow the car to handle better.
Lotus/Caterham cars have MUCH larger bushings, but they too benefit from running loose, though most owners don't do that setup. The early Lotus 7 4 link had larger suspension bushings, and larger suspension bolts. The Lotus guys like to tell me that I am crazy, until the see the bushings in comparison to the parts used on Lotus or Locost cars.
The Westfield's problem is unique, but the solution is very much "old school".
A quick test: With all of your suspension bushings cinched down tight, remove the front bodywork so you can step on the chassis or stand on it, loosen the damper adjustment and bounce the chassis.
You will notice that the chassis will be a bit stiff with a slow rebound. Then, loosen the suspension bolts, and bounce it again. The effort required to move the suspension will be profoundly reduced, and the chassis will respond in rebound much faster.
Then, drive the car. The steering will be even more alive, and have better return characteristics, and the front end will float over bumps. Adjust your dampers to suit, but just enough so that the front end is not "jiggly". The difference is remarkable, in ride, handling and feel.
The rear needs the same setup, but with the earlier cars, were the forward arm mountings are not captured with the shear plates. (you can order these from the factory and weld them in if you want), the bolts need to be loosened just enough so that the bushing can rotate, but not allow bolt deflection. This will feel tight, but that's OK. Properly set up, it takes some force to move the arms at both front and rear, The important part is that the bushing rotates in the chassis.
The most important thing is that the bushings are in good shape when you start. Old bushings will have already spit out their rubber component, and will be rotating and rattling, with plenty of compliance, which really doesn't work properly.
Install fresh bushings for this setup, and you will find that the bushings will last thousands of miles in the rear, rather than just hundreds. Your transition to over steer will be a bit slower and more predictable, and cornering on bumpy roads will be much better. The ride wont kill you, and you can run the dampers at a much lower setting.
Also, if you get this right, a single click on the AVO or GAZ dampers can change the balance from neutral to slightly over steering if you are running an AutoX course, or just need a little more rotation on turn in. The chassis handling characteristics become truly adjustable.
The Protechs change things dramatically, as they have much better high speed (shock speed, not road speed) characteristics, and will damp bumps that will lock a GAZ, AVO single adjustable or SPAX solid at half travel. I will go through the setup of these dampers when they arrive late next week and I put them on my RHD car.
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Markwoodbridge
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:09 pm
Re: Spring & Dampers
Just thought I'd add a note to the spring & damper conversation. Before my A series chewed itself up I fitted Nitron dampers and springs. As I remember I though the ride was too harsh.
The front springs were 350 and the rears 225. Since getting the car back on the road with the K series engine and having done a few more miles I am now convinced the ride is too harsh. After speaking to Nitron I've found out that the dampers are probably set up for a car weighing nearly 1000kgs.
They are now back with Nitron for some tinkering withe damping and new springs on the rear, probably around the 175 mark.
I'll report back when they are back on the car.
The front springs were 350 and the rears 225. Since getting the car back on the road with the K series engine and having done a few more miles I am now convinced the ride is too harsh. After speaking to Nitron I've found out that the dampers are probably set up for a car weighing nearly 1000kgs.
They are now back with Nitron for some tinkering withe damping and new springs on the rear, probably around the 175 mark.
I'll report back when they are back on the car.
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Spring & Dampers
Three things:
First , the Nitrons are probably too stiff for the 175 lb springs. If the damper is still too stiff at the minimal setting, the damper will need to be revolved so that you have useful range, and the ability to handle a damper of no more than 225 lb. in. rate. The standard type dampers usually will handle a spring of nearly 400 lb. in. That's too much damping.
Second: You need a damper of around 14~14.5" in length in the rear so that you have some suspension travel. Figure using a spring of 8~9" length.
Third: If you are using 8" springs, you need a rate of around 130~150 lbs. in. Maybe softer, especially if you go to a 9" spring. Perhaps around 100 lbs, with an inch of preload.
I am currently fitting 140 lb.in springs to the RHD car before I ship it off. I can tell you that with a softer damper (I am using Protech double adjustables that I can soften through the entire range by re positioning the adjustment shaft for rebound and compression). You would have to revalve a Nitron to do that), 165 is still too stiff for a single passenger.
The original cars used a 14.5" damper, with a 60 lb. in. spring with an 11" free length, compressed and fitted to the damper. This was a very oft setup, but worked well.
First , the Nitrons are probably too stiff for the 175 lb springs. If the damper is still too stiff at the minimal setting, the damper will need to be revolved so that you have useful range, and the ability to handle a damper of no more than 225 lb. in. rate. The standard type dampers usually will handle a spring of nearly 400 lb. in. That's too much damping.
Second: You need a damper of around 14~14.5" in length in the rear so that you have some suspension travel. Figure using a spring of 8~9" length.
Third: If you are using 8" springs, you need a rate of around 130~150 lbs. in. Maybe softer, especially if you go to a 9" spring. Perhaps around 100 lbs, with an inch of preload.
I am currently fitting 140 lb.in springs to the RHD car before I ship it off. I can tell you that with a softer damper (I am using Protech double adjustables that I can soften through the entire range by re positioning the adjustment shaft for rebound and compression). You would have to revalve a Nitron to do that), 165 is still too stiff for a single passenger.
The original cars used a 14.5" damper, with a 60 lb. in. spring with an 11" free length, compressed and fitted to the damper. This was a very oft setup, but worked well.
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Markwoodbridge
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:09 pm
Re: Spring & Dampers
Is there another source for the trailing arm bushes rather that Westfield?
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erictharg
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:50 pm
Re: Spring & Dampers
I sourced them from some outfit selling generic kit car parts on the web. Did a "Westfield bush" search on Google IIRC. They are a "standard" size, so there are many different sources. But not much cheaper than Westfield! In the overall scheme of things they're not expensive, given that they usually don't wear at the rate Jan experiences blasting around his CA canyons!
I've fitted some poly bushes at the front of my radius arms, but I'm not a fan. They're OK but I'm going back to the stock rubber bushes over the winter. Personally, I can't see the problem with them. Yes - a four link rear stresses them, but they still last adequately for me.
I've fitted some poly bushes at the front of my radius arms, but I'm not a fan. They're OK but I'm going back to the stock rubber bushes over the winter. Personally, I can't see the problem with them. Yes - a four link rear stresses them, but they still last adequately for me.