Building one from scratch?

[techbod]

An XI replica that is.

But not a Westfield kit, a scratch built one, although it might contain a bit of Westfield.

I've been mulling it over for at least a couple of years and I go on and off the idea as my heart rules my head and vice versa.

In theory there is no reason why not of course - its certainly been done before: http://lotuseleven.org/Rescue&Resto/Ken'sEleven.htm. From what I can glean about that build it is an accurate replica and was 'signed of by the historic Lotus register'. That is way over and above what I would want to achieve.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Ron Champion's approach to building a 7 replica. The big difference for an XI would be the body - its compound curves make it much more difficult than the 7 to fabricate. The obvious option might be to try and buy the front and rear clams from Westfield - I don't know if they sell them as separate items, or take a deep breath and learn the art of aluminium fabrication. This may well be a rather large hurdle, so glossing over it for now...

I have been offered an unwanted Westfield chassis buy a well meaning mate, but it is unfortunately from a 7 kit not a XI. It of course could be modified to be suitable, but it may require so many modifications that it is probably simpler to make one from scratch.

Then there is the question of the donor car. I would prefer to use as much as possible from single vehicle, partially to help try and retain the original donor registration plate and partially because I don't want to spend every weekend in a scrap yard looking for suitable bits. I could use an midget like the Westfield - I do know of a later 1500cc one decaying slowly in its owners garden although the parts will differ from the early midgets (not an A series engine for a start) that the Westfield kit is designed for. However since this would be a scratch built project it doesn't matter unless it turns out the 1500cc engine is too tall to fit. What other similar cars might be suitable as a donor? Wasn't the MX-5 mooted as a possible donor by Westfield at some point? It would be a reliable option but feels out of keeping with the XI's 'period'.

Are there any 'gotcha's' I've missed that would scupper the project? Apart from the body are there any bits that would be hard to fabricate? I can't think of any at the moment.

A starting point might be to get a copy of Dennis Ortenburger's book on the Lotus XI and scare myself silly.

Just some midnight musings....

[Mknight702]

If you want to keep the bonnet line faithful to the XI and not go for a bulge like a 15, then engine height will be your single biggest issue. If I remember correctly, the A Series is 550mm sump to top of oil filler cap. Even the 4AGE with a dry sump is 570mm loosing another 20mm off the 50mm ground clearance I have at the moment .

As for the idea in general it sounds great but possibly an expensive way to do it, but then if you have the skills give it a go.

[techbod]

That is a good point - if it was a 15-a-like I might have a slightly wider choice of engines and so donor cars. I'm not sure I like the power bulge look as much as the cleaner XI lines though.

Strange you should mention the 4AGE - I was wondering what to do with my old MK1 MR2 (so AW11), though again its probably no better a donor than a MX-5 and of course has no propshaft which could be a bit of a problem...

I'm confident I've got the skills and equipment to get a 'driving chassis' built from scratch. Beyond that, i.e. bodywork, that's a different kettle of fish.

[sgrant]

I'm very dubious of the merits of bolting a modern fuel-injected engine and drivetrain (thinking of the MX-5 here) to a historic bodyshell. A large part of what Westfield have got so right with their XI rep, in my opinion, is that it delivers a very passable imitation of the experience of driving a 1950's sportscar, as well as looking like one. The light steering, skinny tyres, carbs, slightly eccentric gearbox, noises, smells, drips, scary brakes, light power but light weight all make it an authentic drive. To bolt the guts of a modern car to a historic chassis/bodyshell would risk ending up with a very different experience, in my view, ie a car that was much better to look at than to drive. I'm sure there's a modern, tiny, Japanese engine out there that would squeeze in, probably with a 6spd box to match. But i'm not sure it'd be anywhere near as interesting to drive.

In terms of fabrication, I'd guess it would make sense to build a chassis that fits the Westfield body, rather than try to duplicate it by hand....

as an aside, I suspect the Triumph 1500 engine that ended up in the Mk IV Midget will be too tall for the eleven bonnet line.

s

[Mknight702]

For a different modern engine and gearbox, the Suzuki Cappuccino would more than likely fit. Then you get a miniscule 659cc turbocharged engine, 5 speed gearbox, independant suspension and disc brakes all round. Kate used to have one and it was a hoot to drive.

[erictharg]

Just about any of the Suzuki car engines are possible, all being LH exhaust, as far as I can tell. But being twin cam 16 valve units would also likely be too tall for the XI bonnet line. So far I've come up nothing else that fits the bill. A Ford pre or crossflow would just fit with dry sump (you gain may one inch max), and I've seen a Westfield XI for sale with a Lotus twin Cam engine (also dry sumped). My choice of modern engine would be the K series, but again unless you could get it to lean over maybe 30deg it will not clear the bonnet. The other possibility would be BMW K series. I believe the version fitted to the LT tourer even has reverse gear. However, you are back to the usual bike problems of overstressed gearbox and minimal torque at any speed.
I'm getting the urge to build something else but so far have found nothing that compares with the XI. I want something that looks convincingly 50's or 60's, has a decent amount of go available, and is just slightly more civilised for touring (i.e. windscreen and boot).
I plan to go try Hawk's 289 and Realm's XKSS. To date, evey time I start looking at the engineering of other kits I end up disappointed. The Eleven is nice. Aside from the engine not being able to sit parallel to the centre line and nil rear suspension droop I really cannot fault it.
There is an Eleven kit in the US that uses an MX5 as the base, and the whole vehicle is scaled up to accomodate it (and I suspect the average American's build). I agree that the Midget 1500 engine is unlikely to clear the bonnet, otherwise I think Westfield would have developed a version of the kit to use it as they're more easily available than the A series Midget.
Sounds like a good Le Mans debate after a few beers!

[techbod]

In fact here is someone doing exactly that - a scratch built XI with someone else's fibreglass front and rear clam. I have to say he is definitely going the extra mile though - Coventry Climex fire pump engine as basis for engine and he cuts the rear wings of the fibre glass clam and makes his own centre section...

part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHKBbXgDUdI

part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJA1cYyD ... annel_page

[Westfield 129]

Why not just make a Lotus 11. the chassis is pretty straight forward and simple. The front suspension on the later cars requires only one A arm per side, while the top arm is a simple link. If you could get original drawings, you could easily do a "club" version, with the solid rear axle. You could even source the original front uprights, using spitfire parts (close enough).

The engine is still a problem, but the Toyota sounds like a plan, and I have seen a couple of X flow powered XIs with dry sumps, or T oil sumps, and no hood bump.

I would suggest that you extend the space frame down the tunnel to stiffen the chassis a little. That would make it a bit more rugged.

The Lotus 7 came from the 11, so if you have a 7 type chassis to play with, you can easily modify it to hold the side panels, and support the Westfield 11 body. However, there is that engine hight problem to deal with.

What all this gets down to is how much time and money do you have to devote to such a project. Many of these projects get shelved, or gather dust forever, as the builder suffers burnout of both spirit and wallet. The only way that these projects make sense is if the builder has most of the skills necessary to build, or has a large enough support group so that he has those skills available. Without the support, the project will fail.

Probably the easiest thing to do is to acquire a tired Westfield XI, and restore it. Take it apart, make the changes you want(15" wheels and racing Dunlops!), and put it back together.

[techbod]

On and off, between a myriad of other projects, I keep wondering about all this.

The big issue since I originally started this thread, is the tightening of the IVA approval process and this makes me question if it could be actually be done. If I want it to be road legal (and still look like an 11) then I really only have one choice now and that is, as you say, find a tired / damaged road registered Westfield 11 and sort it out. The IVA process makes it difficult to get approval for road use on newly built 11 type cars - if I understand it correctly, the sorts of lets say techniques used for getting 11s approval are less tolerated by the authorities now. I'd hate to go through the process of building one and find I couldn't get it approved.

On the other hand if I wanted something just for the track then I have no such issues it can be a Lotus/Westfield/anything - periodically I keep looking out for the Ortenburger Lotus 11 book, I understand it contains mistakes, but nevertheless is a starting point. Also trawl the web from time to time to see what information or drawings are around for the Lotus. I suspect if I do come across a set of chassis drawings for the 11 I would probably find time to start a build and see where it went.

The biggest plus any such project would have is the support and equipment I have access too - use of a workshop with all the normal welding & cutting equipment plus lathe, milling machine, 4 ft press brake, 5 ft guillotine, flypress, swager, shrinker, small wheel (not that I have ever used it) etc etc the list goes on. All run by a car mad mate who had a fabrication and welding business and is always happy to provide knowledge in the area. My skills and knowledge have improved alot, still a long way to go I imagine though. Along with a third person we are trying to negotiate additional space from the landlord for the various car projects we all have under-way. None of this means that with zero effort a fully formed 11 is going to suddenly blink into existence, but it does mean I have a better chance that one might get started and who knows, even finished at some point.

However it brings me back to the first point - if I was going to scratch build something, I would probably want it to be road legal which might mean not building an 11.

[Westfield 129]

An impressive inventory of tools, but the really hard part is making it all work once it is built.
It is the development that keeps the cars from being driven. Sorting the brakes, and that snap over steer to the left, and not so much to the right. Fixing the ride, and the twitch in the steering... All things that have to be addressed, or you just end up with a lovely thing that sits in your garage, as it is too scary to drive.

I have fixed several Westfield XIs with these problems that had sat for decades without being driven. Scratch built? Well, that makes it 10X as hard to get it right.

The trick is to precisely copy your dream car, but add some strength. Most sports racers are not actually strong enough for road use on a regular basis. You don't need to add 50KG to the chassis in steel, but you might want to add, say, 5~10 KG in additional rigidity. Remember that even small changes in the suspension may cause serious handling problems.

Just remember, the project will always take much longer than anticipated, and will cost several times more. But, if you actually finish it, and develop it so that it becomes a useful car or racer, the reward is huge.