Winged Sump

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jonclancy
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Winged Sump

Post by jonclancy »

I thought I was OK when a tangerine-sized rock appeared in the middle of the road in a nearby village yesterday.

I wasn't! :(

I now have a dented and punctured sump that is, hopefully, now plugged with some JB Weld.

I was over at the local race workshop yesterday, marvelling at some of the awesome fabrication the guys are doing. One part I noticed was a modified sump - shortened and winged (like the RS2000 item) to increase ground clearance and maintain capacity.

I'm going to see about getting my spare sump modified accordingly. If anyone has any technical tips to add, or is interested in the end product (spec/price etc), please let me know. My thinking is to add some baffling at the same time. IIRC, there was a chap on the MG forums that baffled A-Series sumps, but their forum system makes it difficult to message - otherwise I'd try to get some more details.

In the meantime, I suppose I'll be getting another gallon of oil and a sump gasket...
LA 11 builder
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:58 pm

Re: Winged Sump

Post by LA 11 builder »

Make sure your fabricator adds some mechanical flapper doors to prevent oil starvation during cornering. You wouldn't want your oil to collect on one side of the sump in a long bend.....
Westfield 129
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am

Re: Winged Sump

Post by Westfield 129 »

I have found that the sump is OK during hard cornering if slightly over filled. This doesn't seem to be a problem. I drive my car quite a bit, and drive it hard. However, if you find a long enough bend, pulling enough Gs... I am sure that there are quite a few guys running sumps with more baffling and someone will have more ideas. The engine has pretty good drain back from the head, and most of the oil stays in the pan. I have not seen any drop in oil pressure when cornering with the sticky 185/70s, and certainly not with the 15" vintage race bias plies. I have done extensive skid pad testing (it does about .9G on really sticky road tires), and never had the pressure drop. But, I understand the worry.

The pan has a baffle already, to keep the oil in the deep part of the pan. Evidently, the braking and acceleration is not enough to unport the pickup. But there are always people who claim to have had a pressure drop. The easiest way to beat this is to run more oil. It's not all in the pan when racing, and wont be hitting the crank and turning into foam. Half a quart should so it.

There is a company here called Sports and Imports( http://www.sportsandimports.biz/engine.html). They make a sump that has a deeper pickup, and a baffle around it. Very simple, and not too expensive, at around $300 with an exchange pan. They are not showing a picture on their site at the moment. I've see the product, and its pretty simple, and a good deal for the money. This is a lot better than the other baffled race pans running about $1600. It works on the car that has one here.

Any way that you can put the pickup deeper in the pan, and keep the oil around it will improve things.

I would not make the pan deeper, as there is already not enough ground clearance. If you want another quart of capacity, install an oil cooler.
jonclancy
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: Winged Sump

Post by jonclancy »

Westfield 129
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am

Re: Winged Sump

Post by Westfield 129 »

Winner's circle and Huffaker make kicked out "T" pans for the Spridget engines, but they are about £1000! They have a box grafted to the bottom, a couple of baffles with doors... Winners Circle doesn't make them anymore, as they can't find a good fabricator. I have seen the pan and was thinking about duplicating it, as I do have an excellent fabricator, but my current setup doesn't have any problems with oil surge or pressure loss. While I like the T shaped pans, they are really for the 8000 RPM race engines, and the price is just a little too dear to correct a problem that I am not experiencing. I could almost dry sump the engine for that money! That would sort of take care of the whole problem with oiling and ground clearance.

The more simple pan from Sports and Imports may be a better deal, and I was thinking of ordering one half an inch shorter than the standard pan. I would also order an oil temp bung as well.

If you do go to a T pan, make sure that there are baffles to keep the oil about the pickup, and the extra room at the bottom might just leave enough area for the oil to slosh away. Also, you might also think about a "scraper" to take the oil off of the crank throws and keep it from being flung about the inside of the pan. This keeps more oil down at the pickup.

Windage trays are also useful (they keep the crank from splashing through the oil in the pan), but there is not much room to make one work properly in the Spridget pan. Note that Sports and Imports shows one on their dry sump pan.
jonclancy
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: Winged Sump

Post by jonclancy »

Here's the plan.

Sump gasket kit to be ordered from eBay.

Heat garage.

Car onto axle stands.

Remove most sump bolts.

Support sump and remove last bolts.

Place full sump to one side.

Assembly is reverse of disassembly (as the manual sometimes says!).

A question or two to those who have done this job:

1. Is it possible to do the job on axle stands or do I need the lift at my local garage?

2. Is it recommended to use a silicone sealant? I have read that bits can break off and block the pick up pipe. I wasn't going to use a bead - just a fine smear.

If a sealand it used, what is recommended, please?

I need to get this job done and the car shaken down before the track day on 19th April - in my head, it's only about 30 mins work! ;)
Westfield 129
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am

Re: Winged Sump

Post by Westfield 129 »

Drain the pan first. You will find that you can't remove the full sump without coating a large portion of the garage floor, and yourself with oil. See, you might have to pry a bit on the pan to get it off, and, well, even if supported, it will probably upturn... It will really be a mess.

If you can't remove the sump plug, then use a fluid extractor and suck it out from the top. You will have to pull out the plastic dipstick tube to do this. Don't worry if you break it, it's cheap and easily replaced.

You will need a good quality automotive or aircraft (Dow 732 or 736) RTV. Use it on just the sump and fit the gaskets and the end seals. Feel free to use it on both sides of the end seals, as well as a blob at each end of the gasket where it meets the end seals.

There are a dozen little bolts and elliptical washers. Lots of parts to loose.

Be sure that the end seals are in place on the pan, and you will have to push hard to get it back in place.

I have replaced pans many times on the A Series installed in the Westfield chassis. You can easily do this with jack stands, provided you don't mind working on your back on a cold garage floor.
Splat
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:12 am

Re: Winged Sump

Post by Splat »

Easy job on axle stands. Preferably front and rear.
Blue Hylomar is my weapon of choice as a sealant.
Drain it first or the potential for calamity is multiplied greatly.
The ends of the card gaskets will appear to be about 5mm too long. They're supposed to be. They'll slightly overlap the semi-circular seals.
Easy job. Half an hour............
jonclancy
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: Winged Sump

Post by jonclancy »

Excellent - thanks for the advice guys. :D

I have everything I need coming, bar the sealant. I can find some at Halfords... probably.
Westfield 129
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am

Re: Winged Sump

Post by Westfield 129 »

When removing the sump, don't forget the 4 bolts nearest the crank shaft seals. They might be hard to see.
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