Oh joy! An engine removal and re-installation, all for what I hope will be a ten-minute fix. The small puddle of Moli-slip-laden oil directly below my ti-torq starter motor suggests to me that the gearbox input-shaft oil-seal has failed. (Incidentally, how many of those hyphens do you think superfluous?)
I've a t9 five-speed 'box. Has anybody experienced any difficulty in replacing the seal? Any tips? I've got a seal and gasket kit on its way to me. I assume that I'll only be using the front oil seal, the gearbox to bell-housing gasket (with a smearing of Blue Hylomar) and the cork nose-tube gasket?
Whilst I'm about it.....
Changing the oil. A suction pump? How much can you drain by tilting the whole car nose down with the seal removed? (What were they thinking of; not providing a drain plug?)
Most of the info's out there on the interweb, but just thought that I'd pick the collective brain here too.
Gearbox seals
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Splat
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:12 am
Re: Gearbox
Ah, yes! Now I remember. So.............
Do you recall that my car was "professionally" built for its first owner? Do you remember that the builder was the test and development driver for Westfield in the mid noughties (let's call him "Jim")? That mine was the fifth of five that he built? That he went on to become the "marque expert" who rebuilt chassis number one, initially offered on eBay at £50k and now with Paul Matty for £35k? That if I were you, I therefore wouldn't touch it with a barge pole?
When I first removed the engine, the front of the gearbox didn't match the interweb photos that I was expecting. Seems that by build number five, "Jim" had realised that, so long as he could source the bell housing, he didn't have to buy a 5-speed kit; all the parts being readily available. Except that, as with so much of the hidden oily bits, corners were cut. So the t9 'box in my car had a front cover of the wrong length. That's the piece marked number 3 in the diagram below. It shrouds the input shaft, with the release bearing translating to-and-fro along it. Rather than source one of the correct length for the application, "Jim" had utilised a cover with a tube of minimal length, leaving the input shaft totally exposed. It was a matter of moments to obtain the correct one.
The input-shaft oil-seal (#5) is mounted within this piece, hence the cork gasket (#4). However, I can't remember if I threadlocked the retaining bolts. If I didn't then it would be very easy for the cover to become loose and leak. Or the seal may simply have failed. Either way, that explains why I have a complete seal and gasket set for the t9 save for the one seal and two gaskets that I now (probably) need.
I've bought a £7 half-litre syringe and I'll also hunt out a replacement oil-seal for my lip-mounted crank-seal. I may as well renew it whilst the engine is hanging in space.
It's an annoying amount of work for a simple, but heavy, leak. And I'm itching to drive my car with its freshly-installed lsd. But I'm going to do this first, rather than end up with an oil-soaked clutch. I just need to convince myself that, as long as I don't hit any snags, I can do it all in a day.
I wonder if anybody here could do it faster..........?
Do you recall that my car was "professionally" built for its first owner? Do you remember that the builder was the test and development driver for Westfield in the mid noughties (let's call him "Jim")? That mine was the fifth of five that he built? That he went on to become the "marque expert" who rebuilt chassis number one, initially offered on eBay at £50k and now with Paul Matty for £35k? That if I were you, I therefore wouldn't touch it with a barge pole?
When I first removed the engine, the front of the gearbox didn't match the interweb photos that I was expecting. Seems that by build number five, "Jim" had realised that, so long as he could source the bell housing, he didn't have to buy a 5-speed kit; all the parts being readily available. Except that, as with so much of the hidden oily bits, corners were cut. So the t9 'box in my car had a front cover of the wrong length. That's the piece marked number 3 in the diagram below. It shrouds the input shaft, with the release bearing translating to-and-fro along it. Rather than source one of the correct length for the application, "Jim" had utilised a cover with a tube of minimal length, leaving the input shaft totally exposed. It was a matter of moments to obtain the correct one.
The input-shaft oil-seal (#5) is mounted within this piece, hence the cork gasket (#4). However, I can't remember if I threadlocked the retaining bolts. If I didn't then it would be very easy for the cover to become loose and leak. Or the seal may simply have failed. Either way, that explains why I have a complete seal and gasket set for the t9 save for the one seal and two gaskets that I now (probably) need.
I've bought a £7 half-litre syringe and I'll also hunt out a replacement oil-seal for my lip-mounted crank-seal. I may as well renew it whilst the engine is hanging in space.
It's an annoying amount of work for a simple, but heavy, leak. And I'm itching to drive my car with its freshly-installed lsd. But I'm going to do this first, rather than end up with an oil-soaked clutch. I just need to convince myself that, as long as I don't hit any snags, I can do it all in a day.
I wonder if anybody here could do it faster..........?
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Gearbox seals
Input shaft length for the t9 is critical, and I can't remember if it is the long or short shaft, and from what car it came from...
In any case, the input shaft shoudl be shrouded, save for the pilot end and the splines.
If what you have works, I don't see where there would be a problem. The cover doesn't stabilize the shaft, it just supports the release bearing. That job is for the pilot bushing, and the transmission's front bearing. If it works, giving the release bearing the correct travel and support, there is no reason that it can't continue to be used.
It could be that you just have a bad front seal. in any case, you should be able to source a front cover from BGH or other supplier for little expense, if you think that you need it.
Fixing this should not take long. I am assuming that the trans is still in the car. everything is reachable, but it can be awkward sitting between the frame rails...
A day to rix the problem (replacing the front seal) and re fitting the engine sounds reasonable if you are working alone without a good air rarchet, extensions and a wobbly.
I use a vacuum fluid extractor driven by my compressor to suck out the lubricant. It helps if you can get the top cover off to get the tube all the way down to the bottom of the trans case.
In any case, the input shaft shoudl be shrouded, save for the pilot end and the splines.
If what you have works, I don't see where there would be a problem. The cover doesn't stabilize the shaft, it just supports the release bearing. That job is for the pilot bushing, and the transmission's front bearing. If it works, giving the release bearing the correct travel and support, there is no reason that it can't continue to be used.
It could be that you just have a bad front seal. in any case, you should be able to source a front cover from BGH or other supplier for little expense, if you think that you need it.
Fixing this should not take long. I am assuming that the trans is still in the car. everything is reachable, but it can be awkward sitting between the frame rails...
A day to rix the problem (replacing the front seal) and re fitting the engine sounds reasonable if you are working alone without a good air rarchet, extensions and a wobbly.
I use a vacuum fluid extractor driven by my compressor to suck out the lubricant. It helps if you can get the top cover off to get the tube all the way down to the bottom of the trans case.
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Simon Marks
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:05 pm
Re: Gearbox seals
Hi, Splat,
I now have oil running down the clutch release bearing lever to the clevis pin with the slave cylinder and a drip of oil on the garage floor - having only done 200 miles in my newly-finished car. I have read this post and, looking back through my build photographs, I have only the shortest of front extension tubes on my front cover. It won't be doing any guiding of the release bearing - hence, I am guessing, the odd funny noise and vibration that I have felt through the clutch pedal on occasion.
Would you, please, be able to tell me which is the correct front cover and what vehicle it came from - and any advice on possible source?
It looks like I will be lifting out the engine soon to fit a new front cover and will combine this, hopefully, with fitting a shallower, wider, Formula Junior style sump (to increase the currently ridiculous ground clearance)
Many Thanks
Simon
I now have oil running down the clutch release bearing lever to the clevis pin with the slave cylinder and a drip of oil on the garage floor - having only done 200 miles in my newly-finished car. I have read this post and, looking back through my build photographs, I have only the shortest of front extension tubes on my front cover. It won't be doing any guiding of the release bearing - hence, I am guessing, the odd funny noise and vibration that I have felt through the clutch pedal on occasion.
Would you, please, be able to tell me which is the correct front cover and what vehicle it came from - and any advice on possible source?
It looks like I will be lifting out the engine soon to fit a new front cover and will combine this, hopefully, with fitting a shallower, wider, Formula Junior style sump (to increase the currently ridiculous ground clearance)
Many Thanks
Simon
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Gearbox seals
Formula Junior sump??!
Why weren't you here a couple of years ago?
Why weren't you here a couple of years ago?
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Splat
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:12 am
Re: Gearbox seals
Jon's referring to his attempts to produce a cut-down sump. Where will you source the sump (Nick Swift?) and how much? I'd certainly be interested.
The guide tube doesn't actually do very much. The release bearing should translate without coming anywhere near the input shaft. Having said that, I simply bought the front cover with the longest tube that I could find on eBay and cut it down to suit! It may not do much, but it's CORRECT.
However.......
A very short tube and a strange juddering? Well, there's a thing! I wonder if Jim actually DID use a factory T9 kit when he built my car? The original extension tube of my gearbox was about an inch long. And I've only recently discovered that the damper springs of the friction plate were impinging on the flywheel bolts! The solution was to file the flywheel bolt heads down by about 2mm. I strongly suspect that you'll find impressive witness marks on the flywheel bolts. After 15,000 miles, mine were totally remodelled!!!!
As for your oil leak, it's much more likely to be engine oil, from whatever crank seal you're using, than gear oil. Mine did exactly the same. I cured it by re-fitting the rubber gaiter original to the Spridget/Minor bell-housing
The guide tube doesn't actually do very much. The release bearing should translate without coming anywhere near the input shaft. Having said that, I simply bought the front cover with the longest tube that I could find on eBay and cut it down to suit! It may not do much, but it's CORRECT.
However.......
A very short tube and a strange juddering? Well, there's a thing! I wonder if Jim actually DID use a factory T9 kit when he built my car? The original extension tube of my gearbox was about an inch long. And I've only recently discovered that the damper springs of the friction plate were impinging on the flywheel bolts! The solution was to file the flywheel bolt heads down by about 2mm. I strongly suspect that you'll find impressive witness marks on the flywheel bolts. After 15,000 miles, mine were totally remodelled!!!!
As for your oil leak, it's much more likely to be engine oil, from whatever crank seal you're using, than gear oil. Mine did exactly the same. I cured it by re-fitting the rubber gaiter original to the Spridget/Minor bell-housing
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Simon Marks
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:05 pm
Re: Gearbox seals
Hi, Jon,
I do remember reading a thread about sumps when I started on my build. However, having seen the recent advert for a car for sale mentioning a sump by Swiftune, I made a phone call. A friend has also enquired and we both have sumps down in Kent for modification. The cost will be around £400, a not inconsiderable sum, but it would be beyond my abilities to turn out a neat job so I'm in, as they say. I've sent details of what obstructions are nearby (oil filter, clutch slave cylinder and pipework and am awaiting a call from Nick Swift to discuss design and possible skidding / shielding that can also be added. I currently have fitted a standard sump with 3mm steel skids and front deflector plate on which the car rested whilst the IVA brake tests were carried out on the rollers (there was still sufficient friction between the rollers and the tyres to give meaningful results). The added protection also allowed me to glide(!) over the main gate keep at Throckmorton Airfield on Saturday.
Hi, Splat,
Thanks for the pointers. I look forward(!) to taking out the engine and investigating. I've seen a gearbox front cover on ebay that looks to be the one I need so I will get hold of one. My Type 9 gearbox and conversion kit came from Westfield.
Simon
I do remember reading a thread about sumps when I started on my build. However, having seen the recent advert for a car for sale mentioning a sump by Swiftune, I made a phone call. A friend has also enquired and we both have sumps down in Kent for modification. The cost will be around £400, a not inconsiderable sum, but it would be beyond my abilities to turn out a neat job so I'm in, as they say. I've sent details of what obstructions are nearby (oil filter, clutch slave cylinder and pipework and am awaiting a call from Nick Swift to discuss design and possible skidding / shielding that can also be added. I currently have fitted a standard sump with 3mm steel skids and front deflector plate on which the car rested whilst the IVA brake tests were carried out on the rollers (there was still sufficient friction between the rollers and the tyres to give meaningful results). The added protection also allowed me to glide(!) over the main gate keep at Throckmorton Airfield on Saturday.
Hi, Splat,
Thanks for the pointers. I look forward(!) to taking out the engine and investigating. I've seen a gearbox front cover on ebay that looks to be the one I need so I will get hold of one. My Type 9 gearbox and conversion kit came from Westfield.
Simon
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Gearbox seals
And I thought I had the lowest ride height!!
Good luck with the sump. Scalloped edges would make installing it easy. Found those nuts under the wing of the Gunn designed sump to be a bit fiddly.
I was quite happy with the design of our sump, but the prototype isn't going back on my car having rebuilt the engine after some grit went through it. Not until I have the sump interior properly reblasted and then inspected closely for any loose bits!
I fancy dry-sumping my next one... sorry, gearbox thread!
Good luck with the sump. Scalloped edges would make installing it easy. Found those nuts under the wing of the Gunn designed sump to be a bit fiddly.
I was quite happy with the design of our sump, but the prototype isn't going back on my car having rebuilt the engine after some grit went through it. Not until I have the sump interior properly reblasted and then inspected closely for any loose bits!
I fancy dry-sumping my next one... sorry, gearbox thread!
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Westfield 129
- Posts: 867
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 am
Re: Gearbox seals
Just a suggestion:
Don't subject parts like the engine block, cylinder heads or the baffled/gated oil pan to abrasive blasting. Removal of grit is always a difficult problem. Somehow, oil always does the removal job, and the grit is always deposited into the bearings and oil galleries...
Steel and alloy parts can be dipped to remove corrosion without the grit problem.
Don't subject parts like the engine block, cylinder heads or the baffled/gated oil pan to abrasive blasting. Removal of grit is always a difficult problem. Somehow, oil always does the removal job, and the grit is always deposited into the bearings and oil galleries...
Steel and alloy parts can be dipped to remove corrosion without the grit problem.
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jonclancy
- Posts: 943
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm
Re: Gearbox seals
Soda is the only real option. Water soluble, but might not be aggressive enough. May be easier to cut the bottom off the cassette, clean it all out and weld on a new bottom...