Wesstfield Eleven production volumes

[alleggerita]

This post was put in the Members Area earlier, but I thought to move it here to get exposure and feedback from the rest of the world too. I also use the opportunity to briefly introduce myself.

My name is Jack, I am from the Netherlands and I have the long lingering plan to buy an S1 Eleven to drive it during the occasional weekend and possibly take it to the track. I live roughly 1h away from Spa, Zandvoort, Assen and Zolder so plenty of opportunity for that. I have a history of driving classic ‘60s and ‘70s Alfa Romeos but I eventually got too tired with the corrosion and hassle. I sold everything, my project cars, interiors, spares etc. a couple of years ago, but now my once neatly maintained garage is taken over by kid’s bikes, table tennis tables and waste newspapers. Time for a change.

I did some research on Westfield Eleven production volumes and came to the following conclusion, open for improvement or debate:
138 Series 1 were produced in 1982 – 1985, partially in kit form, partially factory build
50 Series 2 were produced in 2004
25 Series 2 “Jubilee” model were produced in 2007

Series 2 have slightly modified outer dimensions (track, Wheel base, bonnet shape) to accommodate the engine/ drive train. These S2 were also much more luxurious with full interior and 2 seats. I have seen S2 both with and without Le Mans hump. All S2 cars have a limited number batch.

There has also been this Westfield Super Sports. Unfortunately I don’t know too much about this version. A friend of mine used to race a Super Sports. It had a Zetec engine and was well developed to race Zandvoort but I never put a lot of effort in looking into details because I didn’t really like the bulky shape. Didn’t someone overhere compare it with a Lister?

As a complete side note: I used to be more or less active in the Dutch Super Seven Club, and I organised a number of (weekend) tours while the girls were driving the Donkervoort, trying to win the Coupe des Dames. I even met Chris Smith in 1986 or so, at the evening dinner during a weekend tour sponsored by Westfield.

Does this contribute anywhere to the discussion?

[erictharg]

Can't help further on the numbers. I thought there were more than 138 of the first series made, but no facts! Many went to the US. Some dimensions of the series 2 were the same as the series 1, as it used the same Midget running gear. So, track and wheelbase would be the same on all versions. But here were some detail differences to body mouldings, especially the scuttle. Keep an eye out on Pistonheads and similar sites for anyone selling. They do come up for sale occasionally. I also heard that the factory are making another batch due to demand, but I guess you will need a car already registered in the year of the donor Midget for it to qualify as a "historic" car in the Netherlands?

[Westfield 129]

I am in the interesting position of having both a new (as in pried from its crate June 3rd, and my original LHD chassis #129. This was supposed to have been a factory build, however, there is no way to find out.

There are probably 30 early production W11s in the US. Maybe more, but they are hiding.

My new RHD car is nearly complete. All that has to be done is the wiring and the new, Westfield XI specific radiator that I designed. 'Should be here next week.

Having both cars sitting on the garage floor with the bodies stripped off allows some easy comparisons.

First, the new car is 50kg heavier than the old one. This is probably due to the steel floor, which include 3" deep dropped sections to accommodate those too tall to fit into a Westfield or Lotus 11. This particular change doesn't excite me much. I fit fine.

Another change, and this is a very good one, is that the rear suspension arms are held in position at the chassis in double shear. This allows the rear bushings to be run a bit looser, which will increase their service life by a magnitude. I have a set of the rear shear plates that I am going to install into my old chassis. They fit perfectly, and will just need a pass with the TIG to be installed.

The pedal box in the LHD cars is much different. My old chassis uses a fabricated pedal quadrant, while the new LHD version uses a modified Spridget pedal box.

RHD chassis can be fitted with twin master cylinders and a balance bar. The Factory supplies the cars here in the US with a single tandem brake master cylinder, which is the wrong size, and gives spongy brake modulation. It is easy to do a twin master cylinder setup, using 5/8" units from Wilwood. This also allows the mounting of remote reservoirs, which can be put up at scuttle height for ease of service. Also, if you experiment with the brake calipers, it's easy to change out a single master cylinder with one of a different size to get perfect brake feel. My RHD kit came with a Girling clutch master cylinder, which was easily modified (a screw fitting was all that was necessary) to accept a Wilwood remote reservoir.

I am pretty sure that all of the RHD W11s, old or new, have the same floor mounted pedal arrangement, and can accommodate the twin master cylinder arrangement.

The steering wheel is mounted a little lower on the new chassis, and it is now a madding mix of fractional (suspension, and the old bits) and metric fasteners (everything else). I spent quite a bit of time making the new RHD car just about all fractional. I have nothing against metric, but it is easier to carry just one set of wrenches...

The steering itself of the old car used a spridget "fat" rack. The new RHD car used the "skinny" rack from a Midget 1500, which is of a much slower ratio, and lacks the nice feel and alloy mounts of the earlier rack. I ordered a "fat" RHD rack from Moss Motors to be delivered with my RHD kit.

The coachwork of the new one is a little different, with a thicker lay up, and a smoother finish than the old. thin and tortured fiberglass of #129. The old cars were made from a mold that was pulled from a really used body... Mine has a molded in hand print on the back deck probably from some time when it was being pushed. There is a cute double dimple on the deck immediately behind the passenger seat. Probably from someone's girlfriend riding up there, maybe waving a checker...

The new car has quite a lot of fussy stuff. Wheel arches in the rear that make it harder to work on, and heavier. There are large fiberglass splash panels up forward, too.
I am leaving that stuff off. Hopefully, I will be able to get the weight down a little.

My old one can be stripped bare in a few moments, with 4 dzus holding on the scuttle. The new one has 4 bolts, and two dzus, and the fuel inlet hose has to be disconnected, as the cap is part of the body work. Mine has the cap attached to the tank, as the scuttle fits around it. Much easier.

The cooling system on the new kit is modern, with a proper header/fill tank. However, the radiator fan mounting virtually ensures overheating here in the 'States. The fan should be mounted behind the radiator, and the shroud and mounting plate should be consigned to the metal bin. I have designed a new, double pass alloy radiator for the RHD car. This weighs half that of the Spridget crossflow, and cools about 3X better. It also cleans up the engine compartment, as inlet and outlet are on the same side.

My old chassis has a simple cooling system with a swirl pot for the fill. I added a recovery bottle, and modified the fan mounting and changed the radiator mounting and position. I have not had any problems at all with over heating. Ever.

With both chassis on the garage floor, I see no differences in the measurements at all. The suspension parts are all the same, as are the bushings. Fitting the body doesn't look like it would be a challenge. The W11 is essentially the same as it always has been.

The electrical system is a lot more involved then the one I wired myself for #129. The switches are plastic, and there are some modern bits here and there that I find distracting. I am building the new dash using all period parts, including a rotary light switch, single dual gauge and a chronometric tach. I have also installed the proper side lights, and converted them to indicators so that I could eliminate the lenses mounted to the bodywork, drilling the holes to full size for brake ducts. Both old and new have compact alternators from ND, and geared starters derived from Honda units.

I have built a handful of W11s so far (including a LHD car for the US motor press at the distributor's request), so the RHD car has moved along quickly. It is is nearly finished after 3 months of work. During that three months, I didn't work on it for 5 weeks (35 days) due to parts delays. I am hoping for engine start in a couple of weeks.

Both my W11s have 1380s, with Longman heads, Maniflow intakes and headers. The cams are scatter pattern race units from APT, and compression is at 10.6:1. HP is at 120, but I set the rev limiter to 6500, so, it's closer to 115 hp. The lower rev limit extends the engine life by 4X. My old car runs a Datsun 5 speed, while the new one has an SP Components "long first" CR box.

The RHD kit sits on 15" wire wheels, running 5" in front, and 5.5" center laced (TR-6) wheels in the rear. Wire wheel rear axle, with Peter May shafts, TranX LSD.

W11s are not "historic" here in the 'States. But they are fun once properly set up. I drive my old one daily.

[alleggerita]

very good post, thanks for the in-depth info.

I almost caught a nice early S1 in the US with Northshore, but I was obviously too late. My problem is that I tend to want to first inspect a car before I actually buy it. Perhaps a nice early S1 pops up in UK or France.

Don't they all have a brass chassis number plates?

I have seen some W11 with fuel tank in the rear, these are Manik built aren't they?

[Westfield 129]

The first series of Westfield XIs may or may not have number plates welded to the first top frame tube. Mine does, but others may not.

Brass plates riveted to the bodywork were meant to have a number stamped into them. It was usually the id or VIN of the donor car.

Manik is a distributor of Westfield cars in the US. They never made an 11 type car of their own. Manik has been a distribtor for a few years. Manik does an excellent job of supporting the cars here in the US.

The "Westfield 11" cars that you see with the rear mounted fuel tank are not Westfields at all, but are RevPros. These were built by RevPro in Florida. RevPro was a Westfield distributor. After selling a few cars, they copied the design, with some "improvements", and marketed it as a RevPro. Only a few were built.
They are pretty easy to spot, as they have stud mounted rear dampers, and rear fuel tanks. I am sure that there are other differences, but the rear end of the car is unique to RevPro, and not anything like what Westfield built.

There are a few early XIs here in the US. Most are, for the most part, undriven, as owners of these cars are not really prepared to do the necessary development of making the completed kit a useful, drivable car.

I have done a few of these so far, including the new production kit that was the US Press Demo car for Manik. Properly set up, they are excellent.

The important changes between the new and old chassis are easy to add, such as the double shear rear suspension mounts.

Keep looking. You can find a good one here in the US.

[11admire]

My XI has the brass number plate with the chassis no. stamped in. And the original chassis plate from the donor car as well (HAN8 52202)
It is no 52 and I bought it on Ebay 2005 from Long Island USA. And I have been happy ever since

[Westfield 129]

How the brass plate was stamped was up to the builder. The actual chassis number, if there was one, would be on a little welded plate wrapped around the first top front frame tube (right in the middle), if it was round. Some cars have the numbers, others don't seem to. Not all have a round first top frame tube... Such is the output of the small volume manufacturer.

As far as I know, the factory didn't stamp the chassis plates. Mine has the donor car VIN. It is supposed to be a "factory build", but the car is LHD. Confusing, if one really cared about the trivia. I added a Williams and Pritchard ID plate to my coachwork.

Mine is stamped "W11" and "129", and "CC". Some have put particular chassis attributes to these final letters, while others seem to believe that they are the initials of the fellow who welded the chassis together. Who knows? I have heard several "experts" have different stories. As many stories as experts, it seems.

Rather than collect the production trivia, I have worked on documenting the cars themselves. Having worked on three of the late production run, and a couple of the early cars has given me some insight as to how they were built, and how some of them were handled by their assemblers. Here in the US, there is not much of a Kit Car culture, so any good information is always helpful.

What I have learned is that the setup is everything, and that the assembly manual is really useless in making the assembled kit a "real car". One the W11 is properly set up, it is a really wonderful machine to drive.

To that end, I have been working on some improved components, such as improved dampers, and installing twin master cylinder brake systems on the RHD cars, utilizing a Westfield supplied brake pedal with bias bar. I have also installed TranX LSD units, double bearing hubs, racing axles, and converted a couple of cars to 15" wheels and tires. I have been using 1380 engines, with about 120 HP, along with Datsun 210 or Ford Type 9 (CR boxes from SP Components), in order to get the most out of the chassis. I do chassis setups at my home, using my alignment tools, and a set of electronic race scales (and if you have not done that, you have no idea how well the car works, and how much more comfortable to drive it can be). If it were only my W11, it would be enough for me, but a couple of my friends saw mine, and asked me to build or modify their existing W11s. It's not a business, but it is fun, and I do have a few fellows now and a few cars on the road so that I can get some good feedback. None of the cars are garage queens, which makes this a lot more fun. I have driven my own XI nearly 50,000 miles in the last 7 years. Finally, at the end of this year, it will get the cosmetic restoration it deserves. I will try to put up a picture of the local quartet. Two RHD cars, two LHD cars.

I tried to buy that early production car on Long Island myself. Then, I found one locally, completely by accident. It worked out well for me.

[Pluscat]

Series I Westfield Elevens have three numbers:

First there is the frame number. This is mostly located on top of the tube that holds the steering rack. In 1983 Westfield welded-up a batch of frames and numbered them sequentialy. (It is said that the very first batch was made by Reinard, although there is no proof to support this claim.)
The number consist of:
-two letters in most cases JB or sometimes CC
-the designation W11, which stands for Westfield11
-a number between 1 and 136 (?), this is the actual frame number.

My car has the number JB W11 38, meaning this is the 38th frame that was made.

Secondly there is the productionnumber. This is the brass plate which is rivited mostly somewhere in the enginebay. This number tells you what the car is and when the bare frame was turned in to a kit.
This number consist a sequence of:
- a two digit number, most often 83 which stands for 1983, the year the kit was produced. Sometimes this number is 86 (meaning 1986 ofcourse). It is not known if Westfield produced kits in 1984 and 1985, so it is not known the numbers 84 and 85 exist in this matter.
- a one, two or three digit number, between 1 and 136 (?). This is the actual productionnumber of the kit. The production number does not correlate with the frame number. Both numbers are mixed up, so an early frame number can have a late production number and vice versa.
-two letters mostly KR or KL, meaning KIT RHD and KIT LHD.The letrers FR and FL (factorybuilt RHD and factorybuilt LHD) was used for factorybuilt cars.

My car has 83 73 KR, meaning the kit was produced in 1983, being the 73th kit to be produced, a RHD kit.
(Actualy this kit was built-up by the factory and used as a showcar and demonstrator and was sold in 1988)

Finaly there is the VIN number wich could be stamped anywhere on the frame. This is the (VIN)number of the donor car, and this tells you something about the donor car, but nothing about your Westfield.

[11admire]

If KR in the brass plate no. stands for Kit Rhd and the no. on mine is 8352FR then my W11 must have been made in 1983 as no. 52 and Factory built Right hand drive